thomstark.net
full of sound and fury
full of sound and fury
Now that I’ve spent several posts arguing (quite persuasively I might add) that Jesus is not presented as God in the New Testament, I’m going to quietly admit that he is in fact called God and then weasel my way out of it. I hope you enjoy watching me squirm. It’s disgusting really.
Jesus as God in the New Testament
Once in the New Testament, Jesus is unambiguously referred to as God. It takes place after his resurrection. Doubting Thomas (coincidence?) puts his hands inside Jesus’ wounds and in astonishment proclaims, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) Can’t really argue with that. But I will anyway, if only because I need to find some way to justify the arrogance in my heart and my flagrant rejection of the truth.
Apart from John 20:28, there are three other texts that may use the word “God” to describe Jesus. (Some of you are saying, “I know of more than three others.” Well, there are three that I’m dealing with in this post. I’ll get to Hebrews 1 and John 1 in later posts.) The first is Romans 9:4-5:
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (NRSV)
Now, scholars have a lot of difficulty figuring out how to understand the grammar here. (Remember, the Bible wasn’t written in English.) The last verse could mean:
(1) . . . and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is God over all, blessed forever.
Or it could go like this:
(2) . . . and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all. May God be blessed forever.
(The words “may” and “be” in such a construction as “may such and such be blessed” are always implied in Greek.)
Or it could go like this:
(3) . . . and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah. May God, who is over all, be blessed forever.
Now, none of these translations is ideal. I think options (2) and (3) make the most sense. Paul is blessing God for sending the Messiah. Whether it is God who is “over all” or the Messiah is irrelevant, since the Messiah’s job is precisely to rule over all in the name of God. But the Greek here is just really ambiguous. Maybe Paul sneezed in the middle of this sentence as Tertius was taking dictation. Whatever the case, I lucked out. One less text for me to deal with.
The second text is Titus 2:13:
While we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
The NRSV translates it so that both titles, God and Savior, are ascribed to Jesus Christ. Another translation is possible here, however.
While we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of the great God, and our Savior Jesus Christ.
Here, God and Jesus are distinct. You have “the great God” on the one hand, and “our Savior Jesus Christ” on the other. The problem for this translation is that there is no definite article (“the”) in front of “our Savior Jesus Christ.” Now in English, that wouldn’t be a problem because “our” is sufficient to specify definiteness with regard to the noun. But in Greek, usually, there is a definite article in addition to any possessive pronouns or adjectives. So the problem is, there is only one definite article, and it is in front of “great God.” The Greek literally reads: “the great God and savior of us Jesus Christ.” However, it is not always the case that a definite noun takes a definite article in the Greek. For one clear example of a definite noun that does not take a definite article, we don’t have to go outside the Pastorals. 1 Tim 1:1 reads:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope.
The Greek literally reads:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God, savior of us, and Christ Jesus, the hope of us.
Here, God and Jesus are indisputably distinguished, but “savior of us” does not take a definite article. This is only one example of several where a definite noun does not take a definite article. So, with respect to Titus 2:13, the translation problem cannot really be resolved with any certainty. I think it makes more sense of the passage that God and Jesus are distinguished, but it could go either way.
The third text of relevance is 2 Pet 1:1:
To those who have received a faith as precious as ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
Here we have the same exact problem we had with Titus 2:13. Is Jesus Christ both “God and Savior” or should we distinguish God from “Savior Jesus Christ.” There are plenty of unambiguous examples throughout the epistles in which God and Jesus are distinguished yet placed side by side. But again, the Greek is ambiguous. Here “God of us” does take a definite article, but “Savior Jesus Christ” does not. As we’ve already noted, usually a definite noun takes a definite article, but there are exceptions. Again, we are left at an impasse. People who want Jesus to be God are going to argue for the one translation, people who need the Bible to say otherwise are going to argue for the other translation. Now you might think I fall into the latter camp, since the thesis of this series is that the New Testament never ascribes full divinity to Jesus. But you’d be wrong.
In fact, let’s take all three of these ambiguous texts—Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, 2 Pet 1:1—and let’s say they all unambiguously apply the word “God” to Jesus. Let’s do that. I can cede this ground because it’s just a red herring. I have y’all Trinitarians outflanked. Everything in this post up until this point has just been to mess with you.
The word “God” in the ancient world, and not least in Judaism, had a wide range of meaning, and faithful, monotheistic Jews frequently applied the title “God” to human beings and celestial beings they knew full well were not on par with the one true God whose name is Yahweh.
Gods in the Hebrew Bible
This point is so obvious, I’ll use, let’s see, say, Charles Spurgeon to make it for me. Spurgeon, who believed (wrongly, but not too far off from the Johannine Jesus) that the “gods” of Psalm 82:6 referred to Israelite judges, wrote:
It is, of course, to civil governors, especially those entrusted with the administration of justice, that the prophet addresses this stern admonition. He calls them “the gods,” and “the sons of the Most High.” To the people of Israel this kind of appellation would not seem over bold: for it was applied to judges in well known texts of the Law of Moses. Thus, in the code of civil statutes delivered at Sinai, it is said, Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people. Ex 22:28.
Spurgeon goes on rightly to cite Exod 21:6 and 22:8-9 as further examples. In both texts, the word Elohim (God) is used to refer to the local magistrate. Spurgeon also cites 1 Chron 29:23 in which Solomon is said to sit upon the throne of Yahweh. He then approvingly quotes Joseph Caryl:
God himself hath put his own name upon magistrates, to mind them of their duty, or for a twofold end: First, that being called gods, they should judge and rule as God doth, or with a mind like God, free from the mixture of a private or passionate spirit, and filled with a love to, and a delight in, impartial judgment and righteousness. Secondly, that being called gods, all men might learn their duty, freely to submit to them and duly to honour them; seeing any dishonour done to them reflects upon God whose name they bear.
Thus, according to that infamous liberal Charles Spurgeon, conferring the title “God” upon an agent invested with divine authority was not only not inappropriate, it pointed beyond the agent to the true God, thus bringing glory to God.
Another, similar, use of God is found earlier in Exodus:
He [Aaron] indeed shall speak for you [Moses] to the people; he shall be your mouth, and you shall be his God. (4:16)
Yahweh said to Moses, “See, I have made you God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.” (7:1)
Is Yahweh letting Moses in on the Trinitarian circle here, or what? Obviously, the word Elohim referred to more than just a celestial deity. It could also be used, as here, to speak of the quality of an agent’s authority. Moses has been made “God” to both Aaron and to Pharaoh. In other words, Moses has been invested with God’s authority. With that authority comes the title. The title can be descriptive of function, not nature. In fact, although the Elohim singular form El was another generic word for “God,” etymologically it was probably a word with something like the meaning “power” or “ability.” For instance, in Gen 31:29, Laban is scolding Jacob for having fled, and says to him, “It is within my power to do you harm.” The word for “power” here is El, the same word generally used for God. Thus, to confer the title Elohim upon someone may have been a way of recognizing that person’s possession of a certain authoritative function within a given sphere (e.g., “by the power vested in me”). The title was especially appropriate whenever that authority had been conferred upon a human or angelic being by a celestial deity—in Israel’s case, Yahweh. We will examine two further examples of this before moving on to the second temple period.
Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity;
you love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.
(Psa 45:6-7)
Here we have a figure who is addressed as “God” at the outset, but is then distinguished from “God” later on. One God is obviously superior to the other, because the one is anointing the other. So who is the inferior God? Christians have sometimes taken this to be a “Messianic” prophecy, and it was indeed interpreted that way by the author of Hebrews (we’ll get there in a later post). But what did this psalm mean originally? What was its purpose? Well, it’s right there in the superscription.
To the leader: according to Lilies. Of the Korahites. A Maskil. A love song.
“To the leader” refers to the musical director. “According to Lilies” is probably a reference to the melody to which the psalm should be played. “The Korahites” were a group of worship leaders who collected and wrote psalms. “A Maskil” refers to a psalm that is particularly artful, or poetic. And finally, “A love song.” Most scholars believe that this was a psalm composed in order to be played at a royal wedding, and indeed, the content of the psalm bears this out. The first half of the psalm (vv. 1-9) addresses the king, who is the groom. The second half (vv.10-15) addresses the king’s bride. The final two verses (16-17) confer a blessing on the offspring of the bride and groom. I will quote the entire psalm below, but I will emphasize in bold-type only the verses that are relevant for our purposes:
My heart overflows with a goodly theme;
I address my verses to the king;
my tongue is like the pen of a ready scribe.
You are the most handsome of men;
grace is poured upon your lips;
therefore God has blessed you forever.
Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one,
in your glory and majesty.
In your majesty ride on victoriously
for the cause of truth and to defend the right;
let your right hand teach you dread deeds.
Your arrows are sharp
in the heart of the king’s enemies;
the peoples fall under you.
Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity;
you love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;
your robes are all fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia.
From ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad;
daughters of kings are among your ladies of honor;
at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.Hear, O daughter, consider and incline your ear;
forget your people and your father’s house,
and the king will desire your beauty.
Since he is your lord, bow to him;
the people of Tyre will seek your favor with gifts,
the richest of the people 13with all kinds of wealth.
The princess is decked in her chamber with gold-woven robes;
in many-colored robes she is led to the king;
behind her the virgins, her companions, follow.
With joy and gladness they are led along
as they enter the palace of the king.In the place of ancestors you, O king, shall have sons;
you will make them princes in all the earth.
I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations;
therefore the peoples will praise you forever and ever.
It is clear that the king addressed here is a human being. He is a handsome man (or so the psalmist would have been wont to insist upon). He is taking a bride. They are to have children. As all kings, he is described as a “mighty one,” who walks in “glory and majesty.” As all good Judean kings, he has been anointed by God, and blessed by God. The king is called “God,” and yet he is clearly distinguished from the true God. God here is a title conferred upon him because he is the ideal king. He loves righteousness, has been established by God, is mighty in battle, subdues the nation’s enemies, and is clearly very prosperous, given the description of his garments, his pastimes, his many political marriages and the splendor of the appearance of his queen. That his throne is said to endure forever is not a reference to his immortality but, as indicated in the final verses, a statement about the longevity of his dynasty: he will be remembered through his lineage.
So here we have a clear example of the title “God” conferred upon a king, albeit within a very well-crafted, aesthetically pleasing, maskil psalm. Let’s look at another example, one you’re sure to have heard, and to have been told to read as a messianic prophecy:
For a child has been born for us,
a son given to us;
authority rests upon his shoulders;
and he is named
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
His authority shall grow continually,
and there shall be endless peace
for the throne of David and his kingdom.
He will establish and uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time onwards and for evermore.
The zeal of the Yahweh of hosts will do this.
(Isaiah 9:6-7)
Although this has been enthusiastically appropriated as a messianic prophecy, what we have here is a standard coronation oracle. The providential birth of a king was announced upon his coronation. Scholars generally agree that the child in view here is King Hezekiah.1 The names ascribed to the king are “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” These are typical coronation names in the ancient world and have ample parallels throughout the ancient near east, especially in Egypt.
The language is somewhat hyperbolic, and it is clearly the description of an ideal king. This oracle is not retrospective, but prospective, which means that it most likely dates to the exact time of Hezekiah’s accession to the throne.2 It depicts the ideal king, and projects such an image onto the new king. A modern day parallel would be President Obama receiving the Nobel Peace Prize at the beginning of his presidency.
But the relevant point for us is simply that here is another example of a human authority figure, in this case a Judean king, having the title “God” conferred upon him. There would have been nothing controversial about this appellation, as Spurgeon noted, precisely because it was a statement about the king’s responsibilities (to keep him in check) and the king’s God-given authority (to keep his subjects in check). The king had to earn the title, by doing God’s will. If the king did God’s will, then his being identified as “God” brought glory to the true God from whose throne the king had reigned.
Gods in Second Temple Judaism
Insofar as I have been successful in showing that “God” could without controversy or any hint of idolatry be conferred upon God’s appointed agents (judges, kings, prophets, etc.) within the Hebrew Bible, you may object to its relevance for the second temple period, especially if you have been persuaded by my earlier series in which I argued that Israel only became truly monotheistic—still less so than we would imagine—in the second temple period. If Israel was polytheistic back then anyway, of course they wouldn’t have a problem throwing the name “god” around this way and that. The real test is whether that is still the case in second temple Judaism. If by then, the earlier multivalent meaning of “god” had been lost on monotheistic Jews, then we would have grounds for regarding the language of divinity when applied to Jesus as sui generis.3 So the question is, is the word “god” used positively of beings other than Yahweh, by good monotheistic Jews, in the second temple period? The answer is emphatically yes.
We’re not going to look at every extant example of this, because that would take forever. (There are gazillions. I’m not exaggerating. John Collins counted them, and they’re in the gazillions.) But we’ll look at a few, mostly from Philo, just because his examples are very illustrative and representative. But first, more briefly, from the folks at Qumran, and then the Samaritans.
In a Qumran scroll called 11QMelchizedek, the figure of Melchizedek is presented as a heavenly, angelic being. He is a sort of messianic angel, executing God’s justice on earth. In a striking parallel to the teaching of Jesus (yet prior to it), the tenth jubilee is identified with the end of days, and the day of atonement is the end of the tenth jubilee. The tenth jubilee is described as “the time for Melchizedek’s year of favor” (cf. Luke 4:16-21). After which the scroll applies the first verse of Psalm 82 to Melchizedek. We have looked at this psalm before, but have not examined the first verse.
Elohim (God) stands in the assembly of El, in the midst of Elohim (gods) he judges.
The interpretation of the passage offered by the scroll says that “Melchizedek will exact the vengeance of El’s judgments.” What the scroll claims is that Melchizedek is to be identified with the Elohim who stands in the assembly of El. John Collins explains:
In the view of the midrash, the Most High God is El. Elohim is a lesser deity, an angel, if you prefer. But the striking thing about this passage is that the term Elohim, which is usually understood to refer to the Most High in the biblical psalm, now refers to a lesser heavenly being. There are, at least, two divine powers in heaven, even if one of them is clearly subordinate to the other.4
Another text from the Qumran caves is relevant for our purposes. This time the “god” in question is not an angel, but an exalted human being. Because the text is so interesting, I will quote it in full:
El Elyon gave me a seat among those perfect forever,
a mighty throne in the congregation of the gods.
None of the kings of the east shall sit in it
And their nobles shall not come near it.
No Edomite shall be like me in glory,
and none shall be exalted save me, nor shall come against me.
For I have taken my seat in the congregation in the heavens
And none find fault with me.
I shall be reckoned with gods
and established in the holy congregation.
I do not desire gold, as would a man of flesh;
everything precious to me is in the glory of my God.
The status of a holy temple, not to be violated,
has been attributed to me, and who can compare with me in glory?
What voyager will return
and tell of my equivalent?
Who laughs at griefs as I do?
And who is like me in bearing evil?
Moreover, if I lay down the law in a lecture
my instruction is beyond comparison with any man’s
And who will attack me for my utterances?
And who will contain the flow of my speech?
And who will call me into court and be my equal?
In my legal judgment none will stand against me.
I shall be reckoned with gods,
and my glory, with that of the king’s sons.
Neither refined gold, nor gold of Ophir
can match my wisdom.
(4Q491, fragment 11, col. 1)
Note the use of gods to refer to lesser beings than Yahweh, whom the exalted man describes as “my God.” Because of his wisdom, which is unmatched by any human being, the egomaniacal lawyer has achieved the status of divinity, being counted among the gods. None of this would be controversial within most strands of second temple monotheism (Sadducean religion notwithstanding). The only point of controversy would arise with this dude’s mother, who like Jesus’ mother may have accused him of being demon possessed, out of his mind (Mark 3:21). But note the similarities between this man’s exalted claims for himself, and those of Jesus. One of the most striking to my mind is this:
The status of a holy temple, not to be violated, has been attributed to me, and who can compare with me in glory?
I tell you, one greater than the temple is here. (Matt 12:6)
Many of the attributions of the name “God” are to Moses, as seen for instance in the Memar Marqah, a Samaritan holy book which dates beyond the second temple period but contains traditions that were already substantially developed within the first century CE. In the Memar Marqah, Moses is described as a “second God,” as God’s vice-regent on earth (1:2). Moses is given the name Elohim, without qualification (5:4). It is said that whoever believes in Moses believes in Yahweh (4:7). (Compare John 12:44-45: “Then Jesus cried out, ‘When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.’”)
The Jewish philosopher and theologian Philo, who was emphatically monotheistic, was yet able to speak of Moses as a divinized human being, achieving divine status, and being worthy of the appellation “God,” while yet not in the same sense as the one true God:
Not but what, when he gave him the use of all earthly things and suffered him to dwell among them, he assigned to him not such a power as he might exercise in common with an earthly governor or monarch, by which he should forcibly rule over the passions of the soul, but he appointed him to be a sort of god, making the whole of the body, and the mind, which is the ruler of the body, subjects and slaves to him; “For I give thee,” says he, “as a god to Pharaoh” [Exod 7:1]. But God is not susceptible of any subtraction or addition, inasmuch as he is complete and entirely equal to himself. In reference to which it is said of Moses, “That no one is said to know of his tomb” [Deut 34:6]; for who could be competent to perceive the migration of a perfect soul to the living God? Nor do I even believe that the soul itself while awaiting this event was conscious of its own improvement, inasmuch as it was at that time becoming gradually divine. (Philo, On the Sacrifices of Abel and Cain, 9)
Here we see a reaffirmation of the appropriateness of the appellation “god” as ascribed to Moses in his relationship to the Egyptian Pharaoh. But Philo (along with other Jews of this period) is able to expand upon that tradition and describe a process by which Moses, the perfect man of God, became divinized. This was not of course a claim about Moses’ becoming a member of any sort of “Godhead.” There were various strata of divinity in the ancient cosmology, even (if not especially) within Jewish monotheism. The distinction between the one true God, and those gods that are his agents, even the distinction between God and his preeminent agent, remains clear. That said, I feel like I need to point out that in the ancient world they didn’t use capital and lowercase letters to distinguish between different ranks of divinity. That’s something we do, and it can be helpful, but it is artificial and it can also obscure the fluidity of ancient near eastern thinking on these matters, whereas our categories are fairly rigid. Anyway, to say that Moses was divinized is to say something about his immortality, and something about his authority. Calling Moses God is recognizing that he has been given sovereignty.
(Exod 24:2) Why does He say, “Moses alone shall come near to God, and they shall not come near, and the people shall not go up with them”? O most excellent and God-worthy ordinance, that the prophetic mind alone should approach God and that those in second place should go up, making a path to heaven, while those in third place and the turbulent characters of the people should neither go up above nor go up with them but those worthy of beholding should be beholders of the blessed path above. But that “Moses alone shall go up” is said most naturally, for when the prophetic mind becomes divinely inspired and filled with God, it becomes like the monad, not being at all mixed with any of those things associated with duality. But he who is resolved into the nature of unity, is said to come near God in a kind of family relation, for having given up and left behind all mortal kinds, he is changed into the divine, so that such men become kin to God and truly divine. (Philo, Questions and Answers on Exodus, 2:29)
Again, Philo describes Moses’ process of divinization, this time in terms of Moses’ adoption into the family of divine beings.
What more shall I say? Has he not also enjoyed an even greater communion with the Father and Creator of the universe, being thought unworthy of being called by the same appellation? For he also was called the god and king of the whole nation, and he is said to have entered into the darkness where God was; that is to say, into the invisible, and shapeless, and incorporeal world, the essence, which is the model of all existing things, where he beheld things invisible to mortal nature; for, having brought himself and his own life into the middle, as an excellently wrought picture, he established himself as a most beautiful and God-like work, to be a model for all those who were inclined to imitate him. (Philo, On the Life of Moses, 1:158)
Here is one of the more significant statements. Moses is not just considered a “god to Pharaoh,” but also “god and king of the whole nation.” In other words, Moses was god to Israel. This does not mean that Moses was Yahweh, or that Moses took Yahweh’s place. It means that Moses was the God and King to Israel through whom Yahweh was the God and King to Israel. It is the language of agency, as plain as day. No Jew would have read this and found it blasphemous, nor would they have identified Moses as some sort of incarnation of Yahweh’s unique identity. Yahweh works through agents, and Moses is depicted by Philo as Yahweh’s supreme agent who during his time on earth was “god and king to Israel,” and since then has become properly divinized, taking his place among the family of divine beings.
But for Philo, Moses is not the only one deserving of the title:
If one is to speak the real truth, he [the high priest] is a sort of nature bordering on God, inferior indeed to him, but superior to man; “for when,” the scriptures say, “the high priest goes into the Holy of Holies he will not be a man” [Lev 16:17]. What then will he be if he is not a man? Will he be a God? I would not venture to say that (for the chief prophet, Moses, did receive the inheritance of this name while he was still in Egypt, being called “the god of Pharaoh” [Exod 7:1]) nor again is he man, but he touches both these extremities as if he touched both the feet and the head. (Philo, On Dreams, 2:188-189)
Philo takes this logic of mediation between God and man further. Potentially, any righteous man could earn God’s name, and thus function as a mediator between God and men:
The lawgiver of the Jews [i.e., Moses] . . . teaches that the man who is wholly possessed with the love of God and who serves the living God alone, is no longer man, but actually God, being indeed the God of men, but not of the parts of nature, in order to leave to the Father of the universe the attributes of being both and God. (Philo, Every Good Man is Free, 43)
Here Philo says that any man who is able to become utterly righteous becomes God. But he makes a distinction: such a man is not the God of nature, but of human beings. In other words, to be righteous is to be God to men, as Philo said elsewhere, “to be a model for all those who were inclined to imitate him.” What we have here is the picture of a representative man who through his service to God earns the very name of the God he serves. For Philo, this could in theory apply to anyone.
Thus, here is another way in which “God” could be applied to human beings, one that yet comports uncontroversially with Jewish monotheism.
Before returning to our relevant New Testament texts, I think it would be useful to quote from an Ebionite text which pertains directly to the categories we are developing. The Ebionites were Jewish Christians, who did not believe that Jesus was fully God, as the proto-Trinitarians did, and yet they spoke of Jesus with exalted language, often not dissimilar from that found in the New Testament. This particular passage is from a text by Pseudo-Clement, and dates to around the mid-third century CE (ca. 250). Admittedly, this is not the second temple period, but what it illustrates for us is that even as late as the third century, Jewish Christians still recognized the distinctions between the various senses of the title “God” which we have found to be present both in the Hebrew Bible and in various Jewish and Samaritan writings from the second temple period:
Therefore the name God is applied in three ways: either because he to whom it is given is truly God; or because he is the servant of him who is truly; and for the honor of the sender, that his authority may be full, he that is sent is called by the name of him who sends. (Pseudo-Clement, Recognitions, 2:42)
Jesus as God in the New Testament, Revisited
Now let’s take what we have learned and look again at the relevant texts from the New Testament. In each case, we will adopt the translation that ascribes the title “God” to Jesus, even when other translations are possible, perhaps even more probable:
While we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13)
To those who have received a faith as precious as ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Pet 1:1)
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9:4-5)
Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ (John 20:28)
It has become clear that none of these texts say anything different than what we’ve already seen elsewhere in ancient Judaism, second temple Judaism, and third century Christian Judaism. That being the case, let’s just discuss one of these texts.
Given what we now know about the way the term “God” is used for human beings throughout the Hebrew Bible and the Jewish literature of the second temple period, what could we reasonably surmise Thomas means by his exclamation? We cannot say that Thomas believes the resurrection to be evidence of Jesus’ “full divinity,” because resurrection is what Thomas expected for all faithful Jews. So when Thomas exclaims, “My Lord and my God” (remembering that “Lord” is just a word that means “master,” and his disciples have been calling him “lord” throughout his entire ministry), we would be well within the semantic universe of second temple monotheistic Judaism to understand Thomas to mean any or all of, “my lord and my sovereign,” “my lord and my judge,” “my lord and my king,” “my lord and my Moses.” It could even be understood as Hebrew parallelism, as in, “O captain, my captain.” It could mean any or all of these things at once.
What Thomas has recognized is that Jesus is truly the agent of God and, having been proved righteous in that God has now raised him from the dead, Jesus has earned the title of the ideal king, the preeminent agent of God. It could also just mean that, in his glorified state, Thomas is now recognizing him as having been divinized, achieving angelic status, and so being “reckoned among the gods.” Remember that Jesus taught (and Jesus was certainly not alone within apocalyptic Judaism) that resurrected humans become “as the angels in heaven” (Mark 12:25). Since “gods” was a very common way to refer to angels in the second temple period, it is not unlikely that this is what Thomas meant. Seeing Jesus in his resurrected body, Thomas exclaims, “You’re a god!” Of course, that Thomas used the first person possessive pronoun just indicates that Thomas understood himself to be under this angel’s direct authority. This makes sense since Thomas probably was still interpreting Jesus as God’s messianic agent.
Any or all of these possibilities are infinitely more likely than the idea that Thomas sees Jesus and instantaneously interprets Jesus in a way for which there was no precedent anywhere in any of the many second temple Jewish traditions. Any of my proposed understandings of Thomas’ exclamation make more sense of Thomas within his context than the reading that has him inventing ad hoc a binitarian doctrine of God, de novo. The same is true, mutatis mutandis, for the passages from Titus, 2 Peter, and Romans.
February 8, 2010 - 5:25 AM
By now I’m wondering how the NT writers could have introduced binitarian theology using the language of the Second Temple Period. You’re not leaving them any options!
February 8, 2010 - 5:33 AM
Right you are. That’s a point I’m going to try to drive home in my conclusion to the series. If they were trying to talk about Jesus in binitarian terms, they would have had to explain themselves much more fully just to prevent from being so misunderstood. For instance, when Paul had something novel to say about the significance of Torah, he was forced to go to elaborate lengths to defend and explain his position. Not so his exalted language of Jesus. He just recites it as a matter of course, as if it were uncontroversial. He never attempts to explain what he means or to defend his exalted language, other than the standard “proofs” that Jesus was precisely who Israel was hoping for. All the elaborate arguments he makes about Jesus’ identity revolve around human archetypes: Second Adam, Seed of Abraham, etc.
February 8, 2010 - 8:33 AM
For those who are wanting to read this comment thread, I’ll just let you know that after these first two comments, comments 3-61 do not pertain to the content of this actual post. So if you want to pick up with a discussion of this post, the appropriate discussion will begin after comment #61.
February 8, 2010 - 1:07 PM
What else would he have to compare him with other than those figures of the past? I am not sure that adequate language existed for the writers to clearly express his divinity.
On top of that, could the argument be made that they expected a military Davidic-type messiah and when the divinity of Christ was shown they did not fully understand? We seem to find this awe and correction with the Peter dialogues.
February 8, 2010 - 1:41 PM
You’re reading the language anachronistically, Jon.
What are “the Peter dialogues”?
February 8, 2010 - 1:53 PM
Can you explain what you mean by anachronistically?
The dialogues with Peter and Jesus. (Matt 16 among others). I cannot quote off the top of my head but the apostles appear to be expecting Christ to overthrow the Romans but he speaks of his kingdom as not in the worldly sense. Just an impression that I get.
btw, what do you mean by “proto-orthodox”? You used it in different posts. I have heard numerous understandings for this and wanted to see if we were on the same page.
February 8, 2010 - 2:22 PM
Jesus did plan to overthrow the Romans, when he came as the Son of Man, within one generation, before all his disciples died off (Mark 8:38-9:1, and see these 1, 2 posts).
Jesus never once corrected their assumption that the Son of Man would judge the nations (i.e., overthrow Rome). He told them he would. What he corrected was their assumption that the Son of Man wouldn’t suffer first. And in Acts 1 when they asked if he was now going to restore the kingdom to Israel, Jesus doesn’t say that’s not what he’s going to do. He only tells them he’s not going to give them an exact date. (But he has already told them in multiple places that it will happen before they all die.)
“Proto-orthodox” means the strand of Christianity that represented what eventually became official “orthodoxy.” Prior to the councils, there wasn’t “orthodoxy,” just different factions. Orthodoxy was established with the backing of the Roman empire.
What I mean when I say that you’re reading the texts anachronistically is that you still feel the need to project later Trinitarian theology back onto texts that make perfect sense within their context of second temple Judaism, and don’t make sense as Trinitarian texts.
I have plenty more to argue in future posts, so there’s not much we can achieve in the comment thread without that work behind us.
February 8, 2010 - 6:12 PM
yea, I will struggle to not read things anachronistically considering my worldview. I am not a second temple Jew, but I do not feel we need to read the text from that perspective. I think Christ blew their mind with who he really was and not what they expected. I think the perspective that the early Church held shows a more accurate representation of how the apostles understood Christ then a 2nd temple reading of the gospel.
Sorry, I will sit and listen.
btw, why is it called “proto-orthodoxy” when that perspective was the Catholic view? The orthodox church was a viable part of that for the first couple hundred years, but the proto-aspect was non-existent until way further down the line.
February 8, 2010 - 6:35 PM
Somebody slap him, gently.
February 8, 2010 - 6:40 PM
??? That was unnecessary.
February 8, 2010 - 6:47 PM
I said gently.
February 8, 2010 - 6:48 PM
For what purpose?
I bite back…
February 8, 2010 - 6:49 PM
Just thought I’d try a different tact.
February 8, 2010 - 6:50 PM
Jon,
Give me a second. I’ll make it all clear.
February 8, 2010 - 6:53 PM
Thanks, Stephen.
February 8, 2010 - 6:55 PM
Jon,
Jesus was a Second-Temple Jew, and so was Paul. That’s part of the point. The apostles? Second-Temple Jews. Pharisees? Sadducees? Caiaphas? Second Temple Jews. See the pattern?
The speakers/writers of the New Testament — and, usually, their audiences — were Second Temple Jews. Some of the Pauline letters were written to Gentile audiences — but Gentile audiences of the same period and most likely God-fearers who would have been familiar with the rhetorical constructs of — wait for it — Second Temple Judaism.
The gloss “proto-orthodoxy” is not a reference to the Eastern Orthodox church, but to the stream that would end up being crystallized as orthodox Christianity at Nicea. Think of it as “small-o” orthodoxy. Both branches claim (for the most part) the councils, etc., before the mutual excommunication of 1054, so the distinction between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is mostly moot.
[Yes, the quarrels that led to the split were long-standing, but let's not confuse the issue. Jon has enough to think about.]
February 8, 2010 - 6:56 PM
Sorry for being a burden here Thom. I think there are better ways to handle our opposing world views then sarcastically dismissing me.
Thanks for the help Stephen. I do not need clarity on what he is doing here, I was just questioning some details. Not to piss off Thom, but to understand him.
February 8, 2010 - 6:58 PM
You can’t comment here and not expect to be wet with some sarcasm from time to time. Be glad it was only after I tried it straight first.
I didn’t catch any of the details you were questioning me on. I thought you were just restating your assumptions and asking why your ideas couldn’t be true too.
February 8, 2010 - 6:59 PM
Hi, Jon.
Ira’s comment may make this moot, but I didn’t type it for nothing.
First of all, the Gospels are late Second Temple documents and the apostles were late Second Temple Jews. It is problematic to suggest that they did not think like Second Temple Jews, especially if you take the Gospel accounts seriously (which I get the impression you do).
To insist that the apostles understood that Jesus was divine, but then the authors of the Gospels (at least when read from a Second Temple perspective) failed to make that clear, and then (some of) the early church fathers somehow revived the notion of Christ’s divinity, is a quite convoluted assertion.
Finally, the “orthodox” of “proto-orthodox” is spelled with a lower case ‘o’ because it does not refer to the Eastern Orthodox Church(es), but to orthodoxy (i.e., “right teaching”). They are called proto-orthodox because they affirmed what would become, with the passage of early church councils, the orthodox view. Before the councils, it is anachronistic to speak of an official “orthodox” view because it didn’t exist.
I hope this is helpful.
February 8, 2010 - 7:00 PM
I have spent plenty of time in study on orthodox/Catholic differences. Thank you for clarifying the term, that is what I was confused about. (What does the “proto” part mean).
Although Jesus was a second temple Jew, are we limiting the dynamic of his message if we are restricting it to a second temple jewish metaphysic? The early church fathers that claimed their teaching was from the apostles and then testify to the divinity of Christ had to get this information from somewhere. Even if it does not match up to the second temple thought, I think that is the point. Christ blew their mind. The Incarnation simply changes the game. Am I reading this from a patristic understanding? Yes…because they read this same material, were taught by the writers of the material and came to radically different conclusions then what Thom is suggesting in his exegesis. Which either means Thom is right and all those ante-nicene fathers are wrong, or Thom is reading it wrong.
February 8, 2010 - 7:04 PM
Thank you for the help Ira and Stephen.
Stephen, if the writers of the gospels did not understand Christ as divine, but their students did, then where did the students get this from? Where did Irenaeus (thru polycarp) taught by John get the understanding that John meant divinity? (The “logos” theology also promoted by Justin martyr).
This theory would either mean that those fathers made up the divinity, or the writers taught the divinity just not clearly in the gospels to our exegesis. Maybe their own writing is bound/limited by second temple terminology? They related an unrelated concept to the figures and images they understood as second temple jews?
February 8, 2010 - 7:05 PM
In a death match between me vs. the whole world, always bet on me. God loves the underdog.
We’ve been through this before, Jon. We’re going to have to take this discussion offsite of it keeps up like this, because you’re just taking us around in circles.
You’re a Catholic, so you’re predisposed to believe in the authenticity of apostolic succession. That’s not how historiography works.
February 8, 2010 - 7:07 PM
Yeah, or they were Second Temple Jews who were writing about Second Temple Jewish things like Second Temple Jews, and then when Christianity split off from Second Temple Judaism, non-Jewish Christians started understanding Second Temple Jewish language in non-Second Temple Jewish ways.
Or, you’re right.
This is called an impasse. No further need for dialogue here. And it’s going to turn into a big distraction for those who are interested in actual history.
February 8, 2010 - 7:09 PM
Thom,
I am trained as a protestant first. Matt and I were in our undergrad program together as evangelicals. I was mentored by Dr. Greg Boyd before my conversion.
I embrace our differences and want to understand. I think I am progressing in understanding but I will ask questions where I do not understand. Perhaps I am impatient and that is the issue?
How does apostolic succession make historiography invalid? Irenaeus is before the councils and he speaks clearly on divinity and apostolic authority.
February 8, 2010 - 7:11 PM
I’ve already critiqued the logic of apostolic succession in an earlier thread, but you are of necessity committed to the view that the veracity of the teaching transmitted by apostolic succession was guaranteed. You can’t do historiography with that sort of presupposition, Jon.
February 8, 2010 - 7:12 PM
#22, does this mean that divinity was an inserted idea from a foreign source?
How am I a distraction from actual history? Are we not allowed to ask questions? or do you have a pre-set group of questions we are allowed to ask?
February 8, 2010 - 7:14 PM
Yes, Jon. It’s my blog so I’m stacking the deck in my favor. Any line of questioning that threatens my position will be ridiculed and stamped out before people catch on that I’m on shaky ground.
February 8, 2010 - 7:15 PM
Could you link me to the apostolic authority thread?
Not to be a pain, but are you saying this is impossible because it is different from your view on apostolic succession? As a protestant it is perfectly natural to attack this view, but is that not just as bias of a presupposition as you are accusing me of?
thanks for the time Thom.
February 8, 2010 - 7:16 PM
Right. All biases are equal. Good point. And not having a particular bias is a bias in itself. Another great point.
February 8, 2010 - 7:17 PM
I do not think you are on shaky ground. I have never attacked your abilities. If anything I an very impressed. I am not trying to attack/threaten your position either. Just asking some of the questions that I feel are necessary. If you are presenting your exegesis as the intention of the gospel writers, then why did their students radically understand it differently and claim they gained that understanding from them?
February 8, 2010 - 7:18 PM
I’ll let you think about your question for a minute, and see if you can come up with a few more possible answers to it.
February 8, 2010 - 7:18 PM
Aww he loves me.
I did not say all biases are equal, just that you are bias as well if you are throwing away apostolic authority because it does not match your own faith confession.
No need to belittle my comments sarcastically as “great” when I am not trying to impress but just understand.
February 8, 2010 - 7:19 PM
No need to keep telling me what I have no need to do.
Throwing away “apostolic authority,” as you put it, has nothing to do with any faith confession I have.
I am now putting an end to this. If you would like to pursue your questions, Matthew or Nathan could explain my position to you much better, apparently, than I can.
February 8, 2010 - 7:20 PM
If they did not gain it from their teachers as they claim, then they got it from a different source but claimed it as coming from the gospel writers. This means that Christ was not truly divine, but those fathers betrayed us and then died for that misunderstanding.
February 8, 2010 - 7:24 PM
I do not know your faith confession sir. I apologize for that. I do not know you “in real life”. I know the Emmanuel background, and our brief convo about Liberation theology as well as what I have read here. Forgive me if I am intrigued, but confused for not knowing your worldview.
I was not trying to tell you “what you need or have no need to do”.
Sorry for frustrating you sir. That was not my intention.
February 8, 2010 - 7:27 PM
No apology necessary. Just sorta take the hint. You know?
February 8, 2010 - 7:29 PM
Thom, I think we can truncate this discussion shortly.
I see you just tried to. I’m going to make a slightly more diplomatic effort.
Yes, if Thom is right, either (1) those fathers “made up the divinity,” or (2) it was taught by the early Church but not made explicit (and actually implicitly denied) in the writings of the NT.
I’ve made this point before (and I hope not to you), but I feel that it is necessary to repeat: “make up” has connotations of deception, when that is not at all a necessary conclusion. In fact, it is, at least in my opinion, highly unlikely.
The answer to your question–where did Irenaeus get the notion of divinity?–is, however, another issue. To assume that because of apostolic succession (John taught Polycarp taught Irenaeus), Irenaeus could not have been wrong, however, is where Thom takes issue (especially because it ignores the argument that he is so painstakingly and thoroughly constructing). If you refuse to suspend your disbelief because of your steadfast insistence on the validity of apostolic succession, then Thom is right.
I’m going to try offering some conceivable scenario that might help you imagine some way in which the church fathers could have honestly (yet in a manner inconsistent with the apostles and the NT) asserted Christ’s divinity. Since they were not Jews, perhaps (I’m really ignorant, but I’m trying to help–please don’t laugh at me) they heard and read statements which, in a Second Temple context did not assert divinity, but to their more Greek thought did. (If you have been reading Thom’s blog series, you should be able to appreciate this predicament.)
One more thing: if early fathers died partially because of a novel (and ultimately unbiblical and unapostolic) belief, I would suggest that their martyrdom is just as valid, and they would be happy to do it all the same. I don’t imagine that their dedication to Jesus the Christ hinged entirely on affirming his equality with God the Father, his complete divinity.
February 8, 2010 - 7:29 PM
I am not good at taking hints. What is the hint I am supposed to be taking?
Are you asking me to leave or shut up? I thought you would want questioning. I know I have a different perspective then most of your readers, but I am not attacking, just attempting to clarify.
February 8, 2010 - 7:31 PM
Jon,
One more thing. I imagine that Thom aspires to create a historical argument independent (as much as possible) from his faith confession.
I’m not trying to poke my nose in your conversation, but, rather, I’m trying to enhance your understanding of Thom.
February 8, 2010 - 7:33 PM
Thanks again, Stephen. Very helpful.
Shooting myself in the foot is really fun though, and equally interesting.
February 8, 2010 - 7:33 PM
Stephen.
I agree that “made up” has a negative hint to it. If your scenario is correct and they “misread” the gospels, then they are just as wrong and we are wrong as well for asserting Christ as divine? So our Christian understand of Christ’s divinity ( and the more important notion of Theosis) is a misreading.
Irenaeus is not an argument from apostolic succession in the classic case of succession, but rather because he claims to be gaining this knowledge from Polycarp and John. Not just that he was their student, but that he is citing them as an authority for his view.
February 8, 2010 - 7:35 PM
All right. I can see we all agree now. I’m glad we finally see eye to eye.
Now we can put an end to this silly little misunderstanding and move ahead together of one mind.
‘Nuff said.
February 8, 2010 - 7:36 PM
I do not think you are shooting yourself in the foot Thom,
Stephen I really appreciate you clarifying. I did not know Thom was doing this separate from his faith confession. That is a concept very different for me. In my understanding of theology it is about exploring truth as a faith experience, almost as a form of worship. (This is my greek bias). Thank you for clarifying that for me. When Thom is doing this exercise he is explaining how the second temple view would read this, not that it is how we should read it, or that it is the proper application of the text?
February 8, 2010 - 7:39 PM
Yes. Historical description and religious assertion are not in the same semantic domain.
‘Nuff said.
February 8, 2010 - 7:41 PM
If my scenario is correct, then yes, we would be wrong to assert Christ’s divinity, and I suppose, the notion of Theosis is a misreading. (Although I don’t pretend to know what Theosis is.)
Again, the implications of Thom’s argument (even if it means Theosis is a misreading) should not bear on the validity of his argument. If you allow it to, then your bias trumps any argument.
I’m not calling Irenaeus a false teacher, but did any heretic ever not cite authorities for his or her view?
February 8, 2010 - 7:42 PM
Moreover, Jon, given the extent to which the New Testament writers appropriated Old Testament writings (sometimes egregiously out of context), if the Church Fathers understood the Gospels differently than the original audience, they’re not necessarily far afield of the tradition itself.
I imagine there are Catholic thinkers who are candid about the historical contingencies of the early writings but nevertheless assert that the long arc of tradition is itself guided by the Holy Spirit.
But history can’t — or shouldn’t — indulge in those kinds of moves. If Thom’s right, and he’s making a damn good case, what you do with it is up to you.
Oh, and anyone who’s ever played “telephone” would hardly be surprised that teachings change as they’re passed down. Hell, anyone who’s ever taught class and then graded the tests would understand perfectly.
February 8, 2010 - 7:47 PM
I concur, especially with the middle bit.
February 8, 2010 - 7:53 PM
Pretty serious issue to blame on telephone. The divinity of Christ is a core doctrine as we see later in Nicea and Chalcedon. (Or is Thom bringing Arianism back?)
Thom, if you get done with this experiment could you do 2 things for me.
1.) Explore where the notion of Christ as divine comes from. Is this a valid reading/expression or is it a case of bad telephone.
2.) What implication does this have on Theology?
You are correct that when push comes to shove I will lean on my Catholic understanding, but I am very interested in how you explain and finalize this issue.
Ira, the doctrine of salvation is called theosis, and it centers on the deification of man by grace. This doctrine is fundamental to the teaching of the Church Fathers, who held that “God became man, so that man might become God” [St. Augustine, Sermo 13 de Tempore, from The Office of Readings, page 125, (Boston: St. Paul Editions, 1983)]. Thus, the whole point of the incarnation of God is the deification of man.
I have links if you want to read more. As a patristic-bias Augustinian Catholic my views center on Theosis and if we re-define Christ as not being divine it is against the foundation of that teaching.
February 8, 2010 - 8:01 PM
“Pretty serious issue to blame on telephone.”
Let me quote Stephen in response to that remark:
“Again, the implications of Thom’s argument should not bear on the validity of his argument. If you allow it to, then your bias trumps any argument.”
Theosis is not at all the New Testament understanding of salvation. There’s less warrant for that than for the idea of the membership of Jesus in the Godhead.
We don’t have to disprove the doctrine of the Trinity to disprove theosis. Theosis falls as an alleged New Testament teaching on its own merits.
This is starting to bore me. And it is still a distraction. If you want to talk patristics, there are hundreds of blogs out there for that. I can only stretch myself so far. I’m no Stephen Paul.
February 8, 2010 - 8:03 PM
Stephen asked for clarification on Theosis.
“Or is Thom bringing Arianism back?”
Um, Thom is making a historiological case for how the texts would have been understood by their original audiences. Arius and Athanasius were both later, and both understood the Gospel in very Greek terms, their disagreement over the particulars notwithstanding.
An implication of Thom’s work here might be that Arius was a smidge closer to the original meaning, but I think Thom’s made it clear this isn’t about patristics.
February 8, 2010 - 8:03 PM
Do you have a post where you explain your concept of salvation Thom?
February 8, 2010 - 8:04 PM
You’ve already read it, Jon.
February 8, 2010 - 8:06 PM
Are you talking about the one where you bash “born again” evangelicals? I did not really see you provide your own understanding but rather bash theirs. No offense sir. I am going to re-read it now.
February 8, 2010 - 8:06 PM
Let me just clarify that I’m not trying to dissuade you from theosis or from trinitarian theology. I don’t care what you believe. I stated that at the outset. Believe whatever you want.
I’m writing for people who can suspend their theological commitments for the amount of time it takes to have a historical discussion.
February 8, 2010 - 8:07 PM
I do need to learn how to do that. Thank you for the patience friend.
February 8, 2010 - 8:09 PM
FTR: If all you got out of my post on what it means to be saved is that I was bashing Born-Agains, well, then I’m glad you’re re-reading it.
I don’t think I’ve really exemplified patience, so I wouldn’t thank me for that. But I harbor no ill will.
February 8, 2010 - 8:12 PM
I just re-read it. I like the implications on social justice, but I am not sure how it is salvation. How we are called to respond, or how Christ “does” anything for our salvation other then setting an example for us how to act in non-violent ways to stop corruption. I am not sure how this is salvation sir.
February 8, 2010 - 8:13 PM
I know you’re not, Jon.
The NT doctrine of salvation is that Christ was obedient, thus freeing those who follow him to become obedient, in preparation for the day of salvation when the Son of Man comes to kick the ass of all God’s enemies and give eternal life to the good guys. Salvation is therefore a two-part process. One: being saved out of various cultures of destructive behavior, marked by systemic injustice. Two: being liberated by a heavenly army from ungodly world domination.
Jesus said it would all happen within about 40 years of his life.
That’s the NT idea of salvation, until they realized the parousia was “delayed,” then the theology started to adapt and transform. And, among other things, Catholicism came about. And now you have a reason to exist. So you should thank your lucky stars Jesus didn’t come back when he said he would.
February 8, 2010 - 8:13 PM
I have clearly hit a tangent. Sorry for that.
February 8, 2010 - 8:14 PM
BTW, the invocation of telephone was hyperbole. My point is that the alteration of ideas in the process of transmission is almost a given.
To suggest that a particular set of ideas is exempt from this because they happen to be important to your faith is special pleading.
February 8, 2010 - 8:15 PM
Ira,
I was not saying it is exempt, but rather explaining my cause for interest/concern.
February 8, 2010 - 9:56 PM
Now that you’re all done, I’m back! Thom has at least one thread with 130 comments; why stop now? Relax. I just want to inject a little levity.
Ira, I think the “Telephone” analogy is good, and Jesus certainly established a precedent for hyperbole. And you’re absolutely right about grading tests. One of my students last semester explained that Song of Solomon is a “sex manual.”
Ira and Jon, minor correction: no one asked for clarification on Theosis.
It’s funny that you should mention it, though, because I always thought that deification of men and women didn’t imply equality with God, just as Thom is arguing that Jesus being given the label “God” does not necessarily imply equality. Just a thought.
February 8, 2010 - 11:09 PM
You mean it’s not? What the hell am I supposed to do with all these pomegranates?
And I stand corrected. You didn’t ask for clarification, you just claimed ignorance — which is only the same thing to the hopelessly pedantic.
February 9, 2010 - 10:32 AM
It was entirely worth reading the whole page just to arrive at this point.
February 9, 2010 - 10:37 AM
Gee, thanks.
February 9, 2010 - 12:55 PM
I’m sure he just meant the comments, Thom.
February 9, 2010 - 12:56 PM
Easy for you to say.
February 12, 2010 - 8:06 PM
Yes…just the comments. hehe
February 12, 2010 - 9:30 PM
You just read the comments? You didn’t even read the post?! OMG, man.
February 13, 2010 - 10:10 AM
No, no..you’re misunderstanding me. Of course I read the post. But, as you said, there is an overwhelming section of the comments that are a tad off-course. What I was meaning earlier is that the path those comments took is what led to the “What am I going to do with all these pomegranates?” comment and that statement was classic for me, thereby making the entire extraneous thread of comments totally worth the read.
February 13, 2010 - 10:11 AM
Dude, I was just kidding. I’m obviously not as funny as Ira, but I was just being obtuse.
February 13, 2010 - 10:30 AM
I realized there was a slight chance you were baiting me right after I hit submit. lol
February 13, 2010 - 10:38 AM
Anyway, thanks for caring enough about my feelings to clarify yourself. You’ll have a place of honor in heaven.
February 21, 2010 - 10:18 AM
I just realized that I failed to mention that Paul also referred to Satan as “the god of this world” (2 Cor 4:4).
March 7, 2010 - 10:43 PM
It looks like this chapter really got people talking! I readily admit that, to my modern ears, hearing Thomas say to Jesus, “My lord and my God” is an attention arresting declaration. On the other hand, I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to a question that your thesis brings to the forefront: If Moses could be “God to Pharaoh” because he was used as the instrument of divine judgment upon the stubborn king, then why couldn’t Jesus be “God to Thomas” and all Christians for his role as the instrument of divine salvation?
It is not insignificant that John presents Jesus as a greater Moses. For an excellent discussion of this see “Moses or Jesus: An Essay in Johannine Christology”, by Marie-Emile Boismard
~Kaz
March 7, 2010 - 11:13 PM
Indeed, and recall that Philo called Moses “the god and king of the whole nation.”